Clare Costello keeps herself busy. When she’s not behind her drum kit laying down some of the heaviest beats in town for the band Glitch (if you have yet to see them live, do yourself a favor and do so) she’s in her studio quietly obsessing over one of her beautiful abstract canvases, or with guitar in hand composing music, or in her garden summoning life from the soil…
In anticipation of Clare’s exhibition Realms, which opens July 12, Resonator’s Poet Clark sat down with her to talk about painting, music, and the metaphysics of creativity in general. The following is a transcript of their conversation. Have a read, then make sure to come see the exhibition. If you come for the opening, you’ll get to see all sides of this amazing local artists creative oevre, as she and her band will treat our audience to a free show to conclude the evening!!
I am here this morning in the peaceful outdoor studio of Clare Costello, visual artist and musician, to discuss her upcoming Resonator show “Realms”, her inspiration for creating art of all kinds, and her artistic practice as a musician and painter.
Poet: Clare, Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me this morning. I am excited to get a first look at your work and hear about the show.
Clare: Yeah!
Poet: I think to get started, just because there are people who may not be familiar with your work, would you share a little about your background, where you are from, and then we’ll move into how you got started in visual art and music?
Clare: Yeah, so I grew up mostly in Edmond. I lived in Southern California for like a second when I was really little and then came back to Oklahoma. I moved to Norman in 2012, then have mostly been here since. I was in Oklahoma City a little bit, also in California and Colorado as I kind of traveled a little bit. I’ve been back in Norman for a few years now.
Poet: What brought you to music and painting?
Clare: I mean, I feel like forever I was making up songs and dances, you know, with sisters and cousins and by myself. I remember, like, jumping on the trampoline and just doing free flow, endless song, kind of all over the place lyrics, you know?
I feel like I've always kind of been doing that. Music was always happening because my mom was a piano teacher and when we were with my grandma we were always singing all the things. But I didn't start really writing songs and making music and stuff until I was probably a teenager.
Poet: When did you start to connect with visual art as well?
Clare: So, it’s a weird one, I guess. Not really until like, 2020. That’s when I really started feeling like “I'm going to paint this thing”. I did take a painting class in high school, but I wasn't ever, like, technically proficient. Nor was I learning really technical things in that class.
I think that was at a point that most of the students in there had already taken previous classes where they learned the technical things. We definitely did art history and things, but it was more free in terms of what we were going for and our paintings. So there was that. And then, you know, I remember like doodling some weird random little things when I was younger. But nothing ever realistic or proficient. Technically proficient. And then it wasn't until early 2020 that I was, at that point, taking a big music break. Not really picking up the guitar very much. And I was just feeling like being quiet, but still being able to do creative things.
And it was a good meditative thing to do where I could be quiet, and kind of move slow and just experiment and create something.
So, really, I'd say 2020 is kind of when I started painting if, unless you want to count the high school class
Poet: We can count both!
Clare: (smiles) Yeah.
Poet: So, was it during the shelter in place or during the lockdown that you really started to paint?
Clare: (Slowly nodding) Yeah. I would say it was. (Thinking) Yeah. And I just wasn't feeling like making noise.
But then, of course, I was painting.(Points to two vibrant, colorful, dynamic paintings). Those are some of my first ones I did. Especially those two smaller ones in the middle.
Those are some of those are like the very first ones I did probably. And the Ganesh one over there. But that's kind of like Shiva Shakti or the one in the middle bottom. And so, yeah, it was you know, it's kinda like a spiritual practice, similar to the way it feels like music is too. I'm kind of in that meditative flow state. It’s kind of like a spiritual, meditative thing.
Yeah, it was just kind of funny. I was like, “well, I don't really want to make noise”, but then I was using these like bright colors. So it's like I ended up making noise through them. (Laughs)
Poet: (laughing) You had to make noise somehow. It had to come out somehow. That was a good way to do it.
I love it. It means that your soul had to come out one way or another. And that was what you picked.
I think that's important. Art is an expression of who we are. So it's going to come out one way or the other, right?
Clare: (smiles) Yeah. Yeah.
Poet: That moves us nicely to the next question. What is your inspiration for your paintings? And I think in this interview, there will naturally be some overlap between your music and your art.
But thinking specifically about you as a visual artist, what is it that inspires you when you're painting?
Clare: Just the entirety of the universe. Right?
I mentioned all the colors and it's because that's reality. You know, there are far more colors that we can even see with our eyes.
And, I feel like I'm not really intentionally trying to create anything when I paint. I don't have a plan in mind, but I'm trying to be kind of.. (reflecting)
We said the word channel earlier. just trying to, like, let the universe come through and display itself.
I feel like there's a lot going on (in the paintings).
You know, I hear that sometimes. “There's a lot going on in my paintings.
There's a lot of colors. And it's really because I feel like there are so many things happening at once. In terms of realms or dimensions or something that feels like there's always…
You can look at it this way, but then the foreground changes to the background, and I feel like that's kind of what I eventually start to like to bring through to encapsulate that universal energy even more.
There are many dimensions, many ways of looking at it, a lot going on.
But there isn’t a specific inspiration.
It's just kind of… (smiles) letting the universe present itself in all of its strangeness and complexity and dimension.
Poet: I can definitely feel that. And it makes sense. Eckart Tolle says, and I am paraphrasing, “You are the Universe, expressing itself as human for a little while.”
Clare: Yeah.
Poet: And I think that human beings have a definite relationship to the Divine, whatever form it takes or whatever makes sense to them.
We all are seekers in one way or another.
And I can see that language in your paintings and having had our conversation before the interview.
(Sorry folks, you missed that. Deep, spiritual pre-interview talk.)
But our conversation before the interview definitely opens up what your paintings are expressing.
So, that leads into the next question, which is are there concepts or ideas that are informing your work, or that you are wanting to share, that you would like people to see and be able to take in or understand?
Clare: Yeah. The only times that there's been a clear conceptual inspiration would be like these ones I pointed out, the Shiva Shakti and the Ganesh, which it's like, you know, if you've if you've heard about Hinduism or Buddhism, it's like Shiva, Shakti, Ganesh. You might know what these things are but again, those were some of my first ones I did and I was it was all about that meditative, staying, kind of state.
And I wanted to do something that was, sort of a form of worship or my devotion to these supernatural forces of the Universe. But then in other ones, sometimes I'll see something in the middle of it, it'll start unintentional, and then I'll be like, “okay, well, that that kind of feels like a concept I have inside of my mind that is being realized on this. So, maybe I can accentuate that aspect and maybe someone will see it.”
I feel like with that one (points to a larger vertical painting), and I've pointed this out to a few people, I think maybe like 1 or 2 of them saw it. (Stands up next to the painting and starts illustrating as she points through different areas on the painting).
I saw this as a person sitting and this is a face from the side.
That’s the eye and the mouth. And that’s, like, a brain. And then it's like looking up at whatever this is.
And so I saw that as kind of a person in this almost spiritual mania or this realization, this revelation, or just, you know, kind of pondering the complexities of the Universe, seeing that it's the same thing that's in the mind.
So, sometimes I will kind of start going with a certain way of looking at it and wonder if anyone sees that. It kind ties back to that same Universal mind blown. Like not ever fully understand the mystery of it. Yeah. Vibe.
Poet: Yes, definitely. There is a lot going on, but it's not so much that you can't look at it and see it as a whole and then see the elements of it individually.
Your mark making is really unique and there's so much movement in your paintings, they're not stagnant. There's so much movement.
And I really think that speaks to what you're talking about it. Universal flow.
Clare: Yeah. Energy that is always moving.
Poet:
So I think there are some people that do have an idea. “Let me sit down and I'm going to paint this specific thing.”
Then there are other people who say “the materials really show me what needs to happen.” and “my process unfolds as I'm working with the materials, I don't know where I'm going. It just moves me along. And then as I start to touch the materials and work, then the ideas come or then I see which direction to take”.
And it sounds like that's maybe how you work.
Clare: Definitely. yeah. If I start with a concept, it usually ends up like, not what I'm going for anyway.
Poet: Yeah. Sometimes I would just paint over those things. If I came to sit down with an idea and I tried to get really locked into it and make that thing happen, I would usually end up painting over it and starting again.
So I really understand or relate to, sort of that dynamic process of just allowing the, the ideas to come through to the canvas.
Clare: Yeah and like allowing the lines of it to come through. I’m not one to try to go in with the concept and paint a line, you know. It's like, no, I need to start with scribbling everywhere.
Scribble again, see where the line comes through. I can’t… (reaches for words then just smiles and shrugs) Yeah, you understand.
Poet: I absolutely do. It's the conversation we were talking before you started the interview: about communication, about listening and hearing. And I think that's something that artists really understand on a deeper level in terms of how they're connecting with their ideas and their creativity. So, seeing and hearing.
Clare: Yeah. And being responsive, too.
Yeah, definitely, visually with painting that's how it is.
I think that comes through even more with playing. Playing especially. Something that's producing a melody. And then just hearing where the vibration is extending to. And yeah, just totally feeling your way through being responsive. That's I mean, that's how I do it because I don't have any training in these things.
But it's also, I think, and I don't know because I don't know the other way, it's very enjoyable to do it that way. Because it does bring you into meditation, because you have to be so still and receptive to be able to be responsive to it.
And my favorite thing is whenever that's happening, like say I'm like doing like guitar looping or something. And then the birds chime in and it's perfect.
It's perfectly… maybe it's not completely symmetrical, but where it is, it's adding its own element to the piece so perfectly. And I find that that's what happens whenever I'm truly in that meditative place. Nature will start to just make the music.
But what I also love is just to listen to the sounds of nature as music.
I don't even listen to music that much anymore. I used to all the time, and I think it's kind of exhausting because it is maybe so emotional or powerful or impactful.
I like to just listen to nature as music a lot.
It is. It’s the original soundtrack of life, right?
Clare: Yeah.
Poet: Music is all of those things and music changes us. Music and emotion are so closely tied together. I was doing some research for a project I'm working on and researching music therapy and expressive music as a way to help ground people who are going through, different kind of psychological burnout, parental burnout or emotional burnout even, and so much more than that. Like, we know how it impacts depression and all of those things. But, but yeah, I was talking about an emotional piece of music and how it has the power to change everything just by a few notes.
And, that definitely helps lead into the next question. It's kind of a two part question.
So, the connection between painting and music and creativity is there is there a connection between the two for you? You live in in both worlds. You live in the world of sound and you live in the world of visual expression.
Is there overlap? Are they segmented? Is one creative process different from the other? How do they relationship to each other, or how do they have a relationship to each other?
Clare:
I think because of the responsiveness, because of going into both without an intention, when I approach both forms of art or when I’m going to do those things (laughs and opens arms to gesture all around her studio), it's always just, setting myself up to be in the zone. In a meditative zone where, you know, it's not necessarily the zone I'm going to be in whenever I'm going to work or going, you know, that more like in the Ego..(pauses)
I don't know, there's a little bit of, like, a spacey place that I go when I feel like I'm trying to be relaxed and it’s almost in between those realms.
So it's the same approach with both just setting myself up to be in that zone and to be responsive.
Poet: Sounds intuitive.
Clare: Yes.
Poet: Very intuitive. Almost like the music comes through you and tells you what it wants to be. The painting comes through you and tells you what it wants to be.
Clare: Yeah. All I need is one note.
Like if I sit down to play, it's just wherever my hand goes. Because I don't even know, looking at the frets, what is what. But I just let wherever my hand starts (motions as if holding a guitar), and I hear what that is, and then I build something from that.
And this is the same with painting. It's like, okay, I'll start with this color, and then I make a scrape and then I can go from there, you know? So just starting with that first point, then seeing what happens.
Poet: And I think, to circle back to your, thoughts about being not formally trained, you know, not being formally trained is that there are many different kinds of artists.
Some really thrive in that structure, and they can create well in that structure. But that's not the only way, not even to say “but”, there are many ways to create.
You are intuitive and and your mark making is very intentional. And if I walked in here, I wouldn't say “this is a person who has not been trained.” Not that I'm the end all be all of that. But if I walked into a gallery and I saw your work, I would never question that you had trained yourself in art, whether it was formally through college or on your own. Your mark making is intentional.
And I feel that has allowed you your voice and creative process as an Artis. If you were “formally” trained, you might not have access to paint the way that you do.
It might have stopped you from being able to access that receptive mode that you go into and that inspirational flow.
Clare: Yeah, I think that's true. People have said that to me before in music. I’ve worked with all sorts of musicians, both like me and unlike me in that way. But all of it's needed, especially if you're going to collaborate.
So, yeah, I've worked with people that are, you know, like theoretical geniuses. And I'm like, “I don't know any of this”. And they say, “just don't learn it”. And yet other people love it (music theory)and are into it, and they create amazing pieces with that theory. So yeah, there's so many different ways to approach it.
But I do feel like there's some sort of subconscious shut down that occurs when people have tried to really teach me guitar before.
I'm the type of person that I'll put in the work to learn something, like if I'm in school or whatever it is I'm doing that I need to learn. But for some reason, with that, with this thing that obviously has been a huge part of my life… the music, the art…there's this subconscious log out where I don't take in what they're teaching me.
So I'm like, “oh, well, yeah, just keep just keep doing it for …”(pauses and redirects) …because the meditative place is one where you're not actively using your mind.=
So, if I'm enjoying these things because they bring me that meditative quality of mind, it doesn't make sense for me to fill my mind with things while it's happening.
But I really appreciate people that do that (use music theory) because it's incredible and needed and wanted, you know?
Poet: Definitely. There’s a place for everyone. That’s the difficulty with criteria.
When you start setting criteria, you exclude someone who doesn't meet those criteria. And I think there's a long standing history of criteria in art and music. I feel that we're getting to a place where so many people are saying it's fine if you want to operate within those criteria, but it's also fine to operate outside of them.
Clare: Yes. And like, whose criteria? Like which region of the world? We could go back way before the documented, recorded history of the evolution of music and of theory. But then before that, it's like tribal, primitive music. There's beauty to that. And there isn't a specific place where the tones are supposed to go in all these different lineages.
So, yeah, I like that it doesn't have to fit perfectly on the scale or on whichever scale you're talking about. And there's beautiful stuff that does fit perfectly on the scale. So it's kind of whatever.
Poet: Yeah, it's the Both And. You know, the idea that we have to be one or the other, I think, is starting to go by the wayside. We can be both.
Clare: Yeah
Poet: We can be classically trained and we can be untrained and both exist and have their place and purpose in the world. And that's a beautiful thing.
It's letting go of that judgment. This is good. This is bad. This is right. This is wrong. And just embracing what is and experiencing it as exactly what it's meant to be.
And that's what your music and work feels very much to do about this is a moment in time. I've documented it with paint, I documented it with sound, and I'm sharing it with you because that seems to be what needs to happen. You know, it needs to express itself in the world.
And its kind of like, you know, when you think about there being a person for everyone, or several people. Whether it's a partner or a friend. And sometimes we can only hear things we need to hear in life, through their voice. People that connect for a reason.
And there are people that will only be able to hear the message through your art, that will only be able to hear the sound through your music.
Clare: Yeah. And it might be a very small fraction of people, too. It's like, who knows what, what's going to resonate?
But… Who cares?
Poet: Right? We have to let go of the size criteria. Like, “everyone in the world needs to know me!”
Clare: Well, and that's whenever you start being methodical, because you're trying to appeal to larger groups. Yeah, in my early 20s, there were people sending my stuff to record labels, and it just became this whole weird thing.
And I was like, “I really don't want anything to do with this”.
I'm a pretty introverted person. I say often “I want to just be a monk”. That's how much I do love that life. In reality, I'm not doing art as a pursuit. Maybe I was when I was 21, you know? That doesn't sound appealing to me.
So, however many people, whoever it does resonate with, that's wonderful because then there was something to it besides just for my moment of meditation that day.
Poet: Right. And then that just falls right in line with what what your work is about: it's Universal. So it will find its way to whoever needs it.
And that's the beautiful thing about it is that, you know, we're all spiritual seekers on some level. I mean, it's not contained to just reading a book or sitting on a meditation cushion. Right? Life is meditation. And that comes through in your work. And that's what you're sharing with us. That's what we feel.
And we talked about power, before the interview started. That power isn't necessarily an explosion of action, but it's that internal strength and quiet. And meditation can be even the flip side. So while it's a meditative process, the colors that you use and the lines that you use express so much. Meditation in the universe, isn't always internal stillness, but it's external as well.
And so it's a language all of its own. And again, that comes to the Both And.
It can be quiet and it can be loud, it can be still and it can be movement.
Clare: Yes. And, yeah, just like nature. Nature can be really peaceful and still or can be a tornado. Or hurricanes.
Poet: Perfectly said.
So, shifting gears a little, do you have other creative outlets besides painting and music, other ways that you're exploring creative expression?
Clare: Gardening. Cooking. I haven't gotten like deep in the cooking mode like I used to in a minute. So I need to do that soon (laughs), but, yeah, I do. I love being in that intuitive place with cooking. Seeing just like, well, what is around, what is in the kitchen, and creating something from that.
And I'm just obsessed with gardening.
I long to be tending to plants. Like all day.(Laughs sheepishly)
So, that's definitely a main one. I love, the long arc of it, especially because I like to do a lot of volunteer gardening.
Getting down really close to the soil to see little sprouts coming up, you know, and then like weeding around that little sprout. It is similar to the painting, I guess. Kind of like letting it reveal itself and then like sculpting around it
Yeah, I'm obsessed with gardening.
I just want to continue doing more, grow all the things.
Poet: On that idea of how intuitive creativity intertwines with everything, have you ever thought about combining your art and your music in a show to do more of a performative based or collaborative installation? So, is there is there ever a time that the two would exist together in a space?
Clare: Yeah. I mean, it might be happening at this next show. (More laughing from both of us)
Poet: Ok! That was the next question: could that happen at this show or could we book one? Let’s do that!
Clare: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many things that that could be done.
We were thinking about doing a Glitch set at it, but I'm like, I'd rather not.
The painting stuff seems so much more about, like, this tranquil space for me. And the paintings are the loudness.
But I was thinking about vocal loops as well as percussive stuff. one of our friends Brent, you might know him, too, but he's a really good drummer. I was even imagining him and I both doing percussive stuff at the same time.
Who knows? (Smiles) It’s coming up soon, but we'll see what happens.
I was just wanting to stick to a more primal kind of chanting, like loops or something. Maybe some percussive elements.
Poet: Playing live or a recoding in the background?
Clare: Well, I actually actually at the last show I did there with Casey, I had a vocal loop playing in the background at one point. But I think this time I would just like bring my vocal loop and maybe make some noise using it. Yeah.
Poet: Excited for that potential and will be curious to see how that evolves!
Poet: What's next for you in terms of…and I'm almost don't want to ask this question because this show is about a collection of work that you've been making intuitively. And like you said, I don't have a plan .
Are you thinking about continuing with your paintings? Are you going to continue to work in that medium, or will you focus on music or just go with the flow?
Clare: Probably all of the above.
I feel like there are a lot of projects that are ongoing that I’ll take a break from, maybe even for a while, and then I'll revisit.
You know, like, we have that four track over there (points to the music area of her studio) and I'm like, I need to listen through all those tapes because, the way that we've wrote the glitch stuff, almost all of it that we've played, was also just like spontaneous.
We just put a tape in and were like, “okay, go”. And we just go crazy.
Yeah. So we have those tapes. I want to listen back and maybe even just make copies of those tapes, because I think that would be interesting to hear. This long crazy thing where these songs came from.
And then I also have like 2 or 3 songs that are old songs of mine that I played on acoustic guitar and put on a tape maybe like a year ago.
So, that'll probably be one of the next things I do is just listen through those tapes because also those are the songs that are old songs of mine on guitar.
It was like the first time I had tried to play them in a really long time. So it's very stripped down. Yeah, that could be interesting.
I don't have anything in mind, like writing a new album or anything like that.
For the past, maybe like five years or so I have felt so much better if I’m singing Indian music. I love chanting a mantra but more so like actual melodic mantra songs and stork drums and stuff. So I will probably be doing more of that. And then, yeah, I love painting too.
I just need to, get these out of the way (motions to all the paintings and laughs).
Poet: (laughing) You can sell them all at Resonator and you’ll make more space in your studio.
Clare: Yeah, that's another thing. I decided not to have titles or prices on any of them up I do think I’m going to do a name your own price element.
Like, if you want one of these crazy things, then you can just give me some money, however much you think, and do it that way.
So there's there's a bunch of them. They're taking up space.
Poet: I'm sure that will work as it should. There’s some really beautiful, stunning work here. Clare, thank you so much for your time. What a pleasure to talk with you. Is there anything you'd like to share?
Just last thoughts you'd like to share about your work or yourself or anything you'd like people to know about you coming into the show?
Clare: (smiles) No, not really. I’m glad I had some words because sometimes I just don't have many words.
Poet: I think there's a beauty in that. Sometimes there's far too many words.
Not enough quiet in space. Thanks again so much, Clare. Its been a pleasure spending time here this morning. Deeply looking forward to seeing your show.
Clare: (another smile) Thank you.
